Dave Cairns: Digital, Augmented, Inspired, Connection | Turn the Lens Ep27

Dave Cairns: Digital, Augmented, Inspired, Connection | Turn the Lens podcast with Jeff Frick Ep27

Cold Open:

record, ok, so we’re recording
recording in progress
alright
We’ll count it down in three, two

Jeff Frick:
Hey, welcome back, everybody. Jeff Frick coming to you for another episode of ‘Turn the Lens’. And we're going to do something a little bit different this time. You know, recently I've spent a lot of time with my buddy Dave Cairns and he's running a thing called Inspired People, Inspired Places. And he does it in a virtual space called Virbela. And, you know, he talks about the comfort that a lot of people have in a virtual space. When you're not looking at a camera and it kind of changes the dynamic. So I reached out to Eric (Eric Yuan, CEO) at Zoom and I said, Eric, you know, maybe you should have avatars because apparently my friend Dave says that it helps people be comfortable maybe not having the camera turned on all the time. And Eric said, ‘Jeff, we have it’. Why don't you try it out and tell me what you think? So I thought, Let's do an interview in the virtual space with my buddy Dave, and we will. We'll get an experience both of what it feels like to actually do it, but also his experience, because he's been doing these for quite a long time. So welcoming in through the magic of the Internet from east of the Eastern Time zone, Prince Edward Island. He's Dave Cairns, the Senior Vice President of office leasing for CBRE. Also the #Homead that you've seen him on LinkedIn and in this again in this context the Host of Inspired Places, Inspired People. Dave, great to see you.

Dave Cairns:
Thank you. Thank you. And I love that you did that little ‘East of East’ reference, paying respect to where I come from. Love it. And yeah, just for point of clarity. It's called ‘Inspired People, Inspired Places’ with the very, very simple notion that wherever there are inspired people, there are inspired places.

Jeff:
Great. So let's stay true to this event. And we're going to jump over into our avatar mode. And then what we're going to do is do about half the interview here using the Zoom avatars And then we're going to go to Dave's World, which is called Virbela. So with that, Dave, let's jump over to our alternate selves and get into this.

Dave:
Let’s do it. I got to say, this is my first time actually doing Avatar to Avatar this way. And my first point is that I don't really like the way that I look now that I've shaved my head, but I'm glad that, hey, it's going to keep getting better, the tech, right?

Jeff:
Exactly, what are you going to do? I know if you look at those videos that people share of video games of, say, like a flight simulators and stuff, and they show the difference of the last 20 years, it's pretty amazing what it can do. So here we are. So we're in our virtual space, so let's get into it. And the first off, I wanted to ask you about people's reception to getting in virtual spaces because, you know, you talk quite frequently that you hope at least people have an open attitude and give it a try. And I know you've got kind of a format, which is a nice way for people to give it a try. And I would imagine for a lot of people it was their first kind of try foray into the virtual space. So kind of that initial reaction and after they've been in it, what do you find?

Dave:
Yeah, well, you know, it's funny because like when we talk about hybrid work, we're often talking about designing, you know, the experience for the person that is not in the room and what I think is interesting about doing things inside of a virtual world is often I think what's really great about it is that you can design the experience for the person that might feel the least comfortable to speak up. And I think that that is one of the key, sort of like, I don't know, mantras or ethos’ of what Chris Moeller and I decided to do with, you know, conducting a conversation series that's focused on the future of work and the future of living in a very broad context. You know, we talk about everything from the future of education to the future of family, what it means to be a global citizen. How are people really feeling in this kind of like post-COVID post-traumatic growth phase that we're all experiencing right now? So these are very big, broad topics. We could obviously do this in a many different ways, both in-person and online, but we decided that we wanted to try this out inside of a virtual world for a few key reasons.

The first one is that we were curious, can we earn people's attention better by putting a little bit of friction in front of their faces? Actually, you know, like they've got to build an avatar, they've got a commute to our virtual world and they may have to expend more of their mental energy to actually interface and interact within that world. And can we get more of them if we do that?

The second thing was really around, you know, I kind of hate the buzzword, but ‘psychological safety’ right, like More that comment I just made, like how can we cultivate an experience and a vibe that makes the least comfortable person the most comfortable they could possibly be to say something real? And that's been crazy, actually, having done this now almost 20 times, some of the stuff that we've heard from people has just been off the charts.

And then the third thing was really just like fun and novelty, you know, like, you know, while there's a bit of I want to say, like, what's the word? I'm drawing a blank on the word, but like, there's less innovation happening either in the digital world within the confines of what we've had access to for the last ten plus years or even in person. You know, could we just through this novelty, get cool speakers to kind of lend us their time and create a cool vibe and a cool experience that just feels different and the thing I've been calling it lately is it's kind of like a dive bar to me where I get to test out ideas. You know, talk tracks, ways of opening conversations, figuring out how to go deeper. All of this kind of stuff has been easier for me as a creative person to take risks. And I have found that I'm getting the same in return from speakers and participants. There's just this. There's almost this feeling like it's not even really happening. And that, I think, has been such a cool element to what we're doing. But where we are right now, this is actually very new to me and it so far and I'm not here to knock it or anything, but there is so much less opportunity to experience some of the things that I just described, the way that we are doing this right now. And I will also say I don't really have a crazy strong set of opinions or beliefs on doing this instead of face to face. I don't have a lot of experience doing it, so I can't say too much about it. The only thing I will say, though, is that it probably does cultivate that same level of like ease, comfort or psychological safety that may not be present while face to face. The only thing I guess I ask myself is like how much of an incremental benefit is there to doing it this way rather than just going, ‘camera's off’ and I don't have a strong opinion there, but this is the first time I'm trying it.

Jeff:
Yeah, yeah, well, that's okay. That's what we're trying it and we'll jump over to the Virbela environment in a minute. And actually I think that's part of the question is you know the different impact of some of these different environments and but I want to talk to you specifically about this this kind of interesting juxtaposition of being anonymous and not anonymous. You're kind of anonymous in that you're this avatar self. It's not your face, and you know, I think there's a lot of simple things, like I just wasn't in the mood to take a shower today and, you know, get my hair done that maybe you just don't you don't want to deal with that. That makes it easier. But this kind of juxtaposition with the avatar, that it's not really you, but it is you and how you've transferred that into being more risk taking. It’s kind of, it's this interesting middle space.

Dave:
Yeah, it is. And I mean, look, you know, you make a good point around like ease and comfort and giving people the opportunity to be able to show up in their day in a way that makes them feel best depending on the circumstances. But the other thing that's cool and I really get excited about where all of this can go as the technology becomes better and better and with, you know, in years to come is it gives people the opportunity to express who they are in ways that are like less than typical, right? So by example, my wife, she said to me one day that, you know, she's actually not someone who really likes to spend a lot of time online. She's, she often will actually say she wishes she lived in days of yore where she could, you know, bake bread and frankly, just live totally in person. IRL (in real life) technology free. But as I've been exploring this more and talking to her about it a lot more the thing that came to her, she goes, you know what? I'd like to be missed if I went into the metaverse because I'm so sick of like all of the expectations and the hassles associated with, you know, having to get ready and get out the door kind of thing. And if I could just like, exist as So I guess where I'm going with that is like it gives people this creative latitude to decide how they want to show up and who they want to be. And I think that there's probably both you know, there's like there's two sides to that coin. On the one hand, it's probably incredibly freeing for people and on the other hand, maybe there's a dark side to it too. But I think either way, I believe we will be mixing realities more and more and more as the years go on.

Jeff:
Yeah, and I think the mix the mix part is interesting. That doesn't have to be all one or all the other. What about just logistically, how do you find it takes people to how long does it take people to get comfortable with just the mechanics of the tools once they're in the tool in terms of, you know, figuring out how to move around and and basically do what they want to do to feel more comfortable, where it starts to feel more natural.

Dave:
Yeah. Yes, it's a really good question. And one of the things I found very, very interesting about doing this, this conversation series inside of a virtual world, which again for our listeners you'll see this I guess when we go over there. It's far more immersive in the sense that we can walk around, we can emote to each other, we can run, we can interface with different settings, be that like going and taking a boat ride or going inside of a virtual office building, sitting in a virtual conference room. There's so much more depth to what we can actually experience over there. But the thing that I've actually found is that anybody does show up to our conversations, has a degree of open mindedness and intellectual curiosity that usually makes it, you know, very you know, positive experience in one way or another, even if they're struggling. We’ve only had a few people feel really, really uncomfortable. But the thing that I've noticed with people who are less comfortable with the idea, I guess, of being it's like a game, right? Like aspects of it are like playing a video game. Although I want to be cautious when I say that because I think that, you know, the real world applicability of interacting inside of virtual worlds can get muddied. If people think it's a game, it almost loses credibility. But from a how comfortable someone might be with the environment, it really is like a video game. So if you've played a lot of games, you're probably going to have a higher aptitude for it. If you haven't, you may not. But what I've found with those that struggle is that it's not that they think the technology is dumb, it's that they actually feel insecure and dumb themselves, that they don't necessarily know how to use it very well. And so that's where it kind of comes back to like the building of a community can be very important because, you know, Chris Moeller and I are not just building up a conversation series here like day by day, there's a, new people that come into this community and people that continue to show up. And what we've found is that people kind of take care of each other. Like if somebody new comes in and they're walking into walls or whatever, you know, people will step in and show them how to do the things that they might not understand how to do. So that's been kind of cool.

Jeff:
All right, well, you’re talking about the other space, let's go ahead and jump over to Virbela. So what we're going to do is we'll leave our Zoom space and we will rejoin the interview in the land of Virbela.

All right, Welcome back. So here we are in the land of Virbela. This is where Dave spends a lot of time running his show. We've got different avatars. So, Dave, tell us a little bit about this virtual space.

Dave:
Yeah, I mean, first things first. I can wave to the audience in here. What's up? I can't move my mouth, I can't move my head in the same way. But I certainly can move my body around and back and forth and up and down like this. So what typically inside of this room right here. So we are inside of the Orion growth coworking space right now, which is far more vast than just this room. But depending on the type of meeting that we're having, we would usually have a round table here that could seat about 30 people. And this is where we conduct our moderated roundtable conversations where the format, we have 2 to 3 speakers that speak on a topic. The last one that we had, and you can see the two speakers actually behind me, were Harmen Van Sprang and Ernest Chrappah. And we spoke about what it means to be a global citizen, and we could actually include that episode in your show notes, if that works for sure. And we could also include a link to the YouTube recording. And so, yeah, so I mean, where we have the opportunity here to experience something that's far more immersive and obviously it has limitations. I'm not able to move my mouth to express how I'm actually feeling or emoting, so to speak. My eyes are going to blink at the same speed as everybody else's. So obviously there are limitations here to the physical world. But what has been really, really cool for us is this feeling of being together, being around a table, breaking bread, those kinds of feelings I find get triggered within me. And I know that they get triggered within the others that show up as well. And as we've kind of like peeled back the layers of doing things this way, there have been these insights that we've gleaned along the way. So one of them actually is that if I turn myself, and I don't know if your camera will follow me

Jeff:
Yep, I'm following it.

Dave:
So there are the doors, as you can see, to an open space right there with soft seating and things like that that you would find inside of a, you know, physical office space. And what Chris and I did at the beginning is we would keep those doors wide open like they are right now. And as I mentioned, there's a table that's typically here as a quick non sequitur on the whole furnishings side of things. One of the cool things about being inside of a virtual world versus in person is that you can, in a matter of a click of a button, change the furniture settings to suit the style of the meeting that you have at hand, right, so depending on the number of people we have or what we're trying to achieve, we can actually change that with the click of a button. That's pretty cool. Chris and I would keep these doors open and what we found was that people would actually just come and sit down in their seat, not too dissimilar to an in-person setting where there's sort of that social awkwardness where people maybe don't feel comfortable to actually interact. And to me that, that in and of itself shows the sort of skew morph to an in-person setting where some of the social anxieties these that we feel actually get triggered inside of this world for people too, which is kind of fascinating. But what we did is we started to close the doors after we'd had a couple of sessions and what happened was kind of magical. People started to have no choice but to congregate and wait for the meeting to start, and we ended up getting the benefit of experiencing some of those ‘before moments’ that people talk about being so important that get missed in a Zoom setting, right, and so for people that continue to show up to our sessions, they say hi to each other. They have informal conversations for new people that are showing up. You know, there's a good culture around what we've built with Inspired People, Inspired Places, and we're here to help people, you know, navigate this new experience. And so people that are more regular just sort of step in and help people and we get a little bit of a buzz going before we actually start the meeting. So that's just sort of at a high level. Some of the cool benefits that you can get that you kind of can't get on Zoom.

Jeff:
So I'm, just it's really interesting to contrast the interactivity and the direct connectedness of the avatar with me right now. For instance, on the Zoom one, every time I look down at my notes to see what I want to ask you next, you know, my head went down. We're here I have a little bit more, I don't know, secrecy or I you know, I can look around and I can check my notes and I can grab a sip of coffee and it doesn't impact the avatar. At the same time, you’ve said, you know, you've really been able to create tight bonds and meaningful moments with people. Is, where Where do you think the magic happens? Where's the, where’s kind of the magic line between being too realistic, as you said, Is this even a viable substitute for just being on line? If it's tracking everything I do, why not just put up a picture versus having enough of the of the person to person aspect so that you can actually build real intimate connection?

Dave:
Well, so yeah, it's interesting because I have, like I said, I've only done this one that you were just mentioning today with you, right where you, you know, your head moves or whatever. But if you just watch this for a second, you know, I can dance here and express, you know, and by the way, I joke with people who come in, Gen X literally loves to dance in the metaverse like no other generation that I've ever seen. They just immediately take to dancing in the metaverse. But what I prefer actually about this format that we're in right now over the Zoom avatar version is that I would rather be able to emote and do things like laugh or wave to somebody or cheer or clap. I would rather have access to that. Like, for instance, in our sessions when somebody says something impactful or we welcome someone, you know, we welcome the speaker, a lot of audience participants will do what I just did. They'll clap if someone says something insightful, you know, someone that's sorry, that's more confused. But if someone says something insightful, they might, you know, make a pondering thought. You know, things like that, right, right. So those types of emotes give a really good indication of how people are feeling in a communal conversation, and especially while we are, you know, conducting something that is moderated. I find that. And then again, going back to that psychological safety piece right. People that might be completely deadpanned in an in-person setting or on a Zoom screen are actually going to be more likely in here, in my observation, to emote in the ways that I just mentioned. And I find that brings a level of connectedness that is really cool. And me as moderator, it gives me a good idea of how I'm doing and how the conversation is going. In addition to that, we do have a public chat feature which, you know, usually gets really, really fired up throughout our conversations. And I find that it's it's equal to or better in terms of engagement from audience in the chat inside of these conversations than I find in a Zoom webinar or something like that and I think that part of it is this connectedness that people feel because there's this element of feeling like you are actually physically around the table with one another. If we were seated here, I could turn my head and look at the people beside me. They'd be able to see that from me, you know, so there are just those elements that really actually, I think even with the existing technology, give the give some of the key benefits of being in person that aren't possible through a Zoom screen.

And then, you know, in addition to that, it's not, you know, Chris and I or anyone I think that uses this stuff wouldn't suggest that this format certainly at least in its current form, should ever be replacing in-person interactions or even replacing all of what we just did on Zoom. But it's a really interesting and cool way to augment meetings for various use cases. You know, whether that's just finding a more immersive way to bring a globally distributed group of people together, whether that's having the agenda of making sure that person that feels the most uncomfortable in the room might have the opportunity to feel more comfortable than they ever have. And on and on and on. We feel that there are use cases for that, and that's actually specifically why Chris and I have decided to call what we're doing more of an events company than, say, co-working or anything like that at this point, we haven't found a meaningful use case for, you know, basically just working from this space every day. I'm personally not convinced that this is probably the next frontier of the virtual office from the perspective of productivity. And like, you know, quick bursts of communication that might need to occur. I've actually found that the software Roam is a little bit more interesting for that than the metaverse, but for running events and anything that might be a more of an immersive interaction. I really do like this. And frankly, as I was kind of going back and saying there have been elements of doing it this way that I've actually enjoyed more than in-person because I kind of called it like a dive bar concept, right, like I've been able to explore parts of my creativity that I don't believe I would have been as comfortable doing had I been in person. And I know it's the same for some of the speakers because they've told me that and I haven't been able to road test this yet, but I sort of suspect that I'm probably a more comfortable moderator in person because of what I've done here than I might have been if I hadn't done it.

Jeff:
You know, it's just interesting As you're talking and I'm thinking of the gaming, the gaming aspects, just in terms of when you get competent at a particular game, or even driving to forget about electronics to where you know your connection with the inputs and outputs is so tight and so hardwired and so thought free that it does direct connect your emotion to whatever it is that you're doing. And I can see, you know, as you're going through all those different emotive examples and waving and jumping and dancing, that once you get comfortable enough with the tool that, you know, it does direct connect the emotion of feeling good about dancing with what's happening on the screen through that touch of whatever the keystroke is.

Dave:
Yeah for sure, and I mean you know Darren Murph, he's been on your other show. We had Darren along with Chris Herd and Dr. Gleb Tsipursky come and talk about really it was a really cool conversation to I'd love to drop that in your show notes. It was called ‘Life After Hybrid Working’ when the ‘Future of Living’ joins the chat which was a really interesting conversation unto itself regardless of doing it in this format. But when we welcomed Darren to our lobby that you and I were just in, he remarked to me that one of his favorite methods of communication is actually the phone. Like just speaking on the phone. No video, nothing at all, because it gives him the best opportunity to actually immerse himself in what somebody is saying and stay the most connected to their words. But that, what he then went on to say is that he felt this sense of being together while getting the benefit of, you know, this, reducing that stress that can sometimes come from having to evaluate every aspect of someone's physicality while you're trying to understand what they say.

Jeff:
That’s why I asked kind of the steepness of the learning curve. Once you get over the clumsiness and the clunkiness of just literally trying to figure out what the heck is going on, you know, then you get into a much more easy, easy flow. Well, let's let's jump back over into the real world to wrap up.

Jeff:
Welcome back to the to the real world. Well Dave, that's a really interesting tour. I appreciate it and You said you've been doing 20 of these, so now you've got quite a history and quite a dataset and quite a learning. Having gone through this, are people more receptive to it do you find? Are they less? Well, clearly they're showing up, so they have an interest. But it's interesting the way you said you added friction to basically increase commitment.

Dave:
And now we're at a point where we're trying to figure out how to keep that secret source that as you say, increases commitment through the friction. But figure out the way to actually grow the denominator of our audience base, because of course, we want to do that. We want to get more people connected to what we're doing, and what I should also say is that Chris and I have the vision of being able to create a community that is both digital and in person. And on that note, I actually wanna a lot of people say ‘IRL’ ‘In Real Life’ my personal belief is that wherever human consciousness is colliding, it's real life. So, you know, I actually believe it's more appropriate to say in person than it is to say IRL. So I thought I’d just mention that and it's not that anyone would or should take offense to that use of the term it’s part of the zeitgeist of you know our society. But I try to be a little bit more intentional with the way I communicate these things now that I've actually spent so much time doing this inside of a virtual world.

But yeah, we have the goal of growing a community that can hopefully leapfrog into the in-person world as well. But in addition to that, we feel that meeting in this way has really, really awesome opportunities for globally distributed people to connect. But I admit I don't have all the answers. I don't know how to go about growing that denominator because one of the key problems we face, and you and I have talked about this offline is that, you know, we haven't found the best possible way to get people's calendars blocked for these events. Because if we create a LinkedIn calendar, like a LinkedIn live thing, people think it's that. Otherwise, we're trying to include in the comments section of posts that we promote, you know, the download link for Virbela, our form to fill out so that you can get on our email list and a LinkedIn page, a LinkedIn group that we have, right? Like those are the ways we're doing it. The only thing that we've come up with is to try to iterate on this for our third season, which will come out in the next couple of months, is to do our best to actually book out the whole season before it starts, which is a challenge unto itself to get ten episodes of a season. You know, all the speakers committed, everybody committed to a specific date because we do this live, right? We don't have flexibility around it. We try to do it on the same day at the same time to create some consistency. But if we can figure that part of it out, then at least to the community of people that have given us their email, we can actually send them out calendar blocks just to at least make sure it's in their calendar. They're still going to have to remember that it is not a webinar and that they're going to need to go and download the software client or open it up if they already have it to come to the conversation. But that's one thing we're trying to figure out at least. But if you have any ideas on how to grow the denominator with this kind of friction, I'm all ears. I don't have all the answers.

Jeff:
Well, I'm also a little curious because how many people are showing up and, you know, what's the magic number? And when you hit a certain denominator is that you have to break out in breakout rooms. Is it 20 people? Is it 30 people? You know, out of that, 30 people are there, you know, two major contributors, ten participants and 20 people that I'm just here to learn and not necessarily participate. I think you're going to get a lot of interesting data, and I would be curious to see how far you can stretch that before you. You know, I think it's 200 is the number that wedding planners use right. It's like the magic number or whatever it is in terms of size of relationships and stuff. But it would be curious to see. I think you're fighting a little bit the tides on the sync versus async consumption that's just the reality. So I think you just have to. I think you're doing the right thing. You just basically pick a pattern so that people at least know the pattern. And if they choose to participate or get involved in the pattern, there's some consistency there because, you know, people like to consume on their own time. So, you know, you definitely need to have some type of, you know, async consumption component of it in terms of the review or the notes or the, you know, come back and watch it again or, you know, all those types of things.

Dave:
Yeah, absolutely, we’re. We do record the conversations. We do put them on YouTube. They're not very engaging to go and watch back because, you know, it we've been trying to find interesting ways to shoot content that way. But we kind of arrived at the fact that it's not worth trying to expend that extra energy to make that YouTube experience, you know, really top notch, because I think there's just too many limitations, but it's at least a place that people can go and digest the content asynchronously, because the content in and of itself is incredible. And I really do think part of it is this whole dive bar thing that makes it cool because people feel a little bit more comfortable to say things they might not say in other domains. But yeah, I think that the goal for me, going back to your other comment around, like what is the secret sauce in terms of the size of the gathering, That's really an interesting exercise Jeff, because it actually is a lot like the in-person side of things where, you know, you end up like with a great small group or a middle sized group that can get a little bit awkward, or then you get into large formats. We've found that around 30 people is perfect in terms of engagement. We can all sit around the same table and the amount of participation goes up. The session we had with Chris Herd, Dr. Gleb and Darren actually at one point had almost 100 people there. We did that in a larger room and we did lose a little bit of that connection that we had. So I would say I'd love to keep running, you know, 30 person style events. I'd also be happy if they were bigger. The thing I would really want to see happen more than anything is to be able to grow the community with the knowledge that not everybody shows up every time. And maybe, who knows, maybe there, all of a sudden the community might be moderating their own conversations in the future with 30 people in them and maybe I'm not doing all the moderating. That would be cool. Who knows? This is purely a passion project right now and a thought exercise and kind of just seeing where it goes.

Jeff:
Well, let me. I just want to give you the last word, because one of the themes you talk about a lot is just experimenting and just trying and, you know hoping people will have an open an attitude and clearly, you know, you've taken a lot of experiments in your life and you've tried a lot of things, kind of unconventional paths to see if they worked out. And you've hit on more times than you've missed, which is great. So, you know, final kind of thoughts in terms of encouraging people really just to try and experiment and not be too judgmental and and even accepting of the fact that it's probably going to be a little kludgy and you know, it may not be super comfortable and you may not get it the first time, but to not just discount it without really some some exploratory investigation.

Dave:
Yeah, I mean, I'll make my comment to have nothing to do with whether you show up to any of our conversations or not. The thing that I've learned through all this trial and error in my life that you mentioned, Jeff, which you didn't allude to, all the stuff I won't allude to it either, but you can follow me or look me up or send me a message and I'll tell you more about my life choices but as I've experienced more of them, I have come realize how little I know about anything. And so I have every day that goes by, I just have more humility and more open mindedness to the things that I don't understand. And so or the things that I disagree with, right. You know, some people have a very, very negative perspective of the term metaverse. Right. And I believe that term can be also as ‘hot button-ey’ as the word hybrid work. Hybrid work means so many different things to so many different people. Right. And I think the same really is true for Metaverse. The difference with Metaverse is that most people haven't really tried it at all but are often coming to the conversation with a very strong belief about the fact that they dislike it or something like that. So I guess if you have if you're finding yourself feeling all hot and bothered inside about the word metaverse, maybe just remember that we don't really know a lot as human beings about anything. <laughter>

Jeff:
That is a great leave. And no matter what we know, right, the that ‘that’ we don't is much much bigger than the ‘that’ that we do. So the N is way bigger than our little piece of the Venn diagram. Well Dave thanks for coming on and trying this experiment with me today. I think it's really interesting. I think you're way out front and really doing and as you said, nobody really knows. But the only way to figure out is to do and you're a big you're a big doer, right? You could talk about it til we’re blue in the face or you can just start doing it. And really appreciate the time and the insight. And, you know Congrats to you and Chris for two seasons in the books, right

Dave:
Thanks, man, appreciate it. This was fun. No one’s probably ever done one like this before. We've done physical faces, Zoom faces and Virbela. Who's done that before?

Jeff:
Yeah

Dave:
This might be the first time ever

Jeff:
And none are substitutes for the other, but they're all options when the other one's not available. So I think that's the That's the right attitude. All right, Dave, well thanks a ton. Have a great day and we'll catch up to you online.

Dave:
Thanks, man.

Jeff:
All right. He’s Dave. I'm Jeff. You're watching, ‘Turn the Lens’ with Jeff Frick we'll see you next time. Thanks for watching. And for those on the podcast, you might want to check out the video. It's not the normal video that we do take care. It's not the normal video that we do take care.

<Laughter>

Cold Close
All right,
Cool out.
Excellent.
That was fun.